Preeminent producer and mix maestro Martin Bisi has finally done for himself what he has so often done for others. Best known as the sonic sculptor behind everyone from Herbie Hancock to Cop Shoot Cop, Bisi has made a record unlike anything with which he is usually linked. ALL WILL BE WON (New Alliance) presents a parallel universe of Hispanic and Latino music, performed through an almost-Anglo rock sensibility that has both rubbed off onto Bisi from his travels through Amerika and been imposed upon him by the greedy Gringos of yore. ALL WILL BE WON consists of his trademark low tech/high fidelity production values with an assortment of gritty yet beautiful compositions. Augmented by frequent collaborator Sandra Seymour and the vocal bossiness of Boss Hog's Christina, the album conjures up images of Carlos Santana and Lydia Lunch fucking in the desert.

Part of that is because I wanted to do a record more like an artist would, and less like a producer would. The artist will have the instrumentation more consistent because he makes music with a set group of people. They make the music, on occasion there'll be a variation, but basically it's fairly consistent. A producer generally likes playing in the studio more. A producer has more friends. A producer is a producer because he doesn't have a specific musical identity. That's probably why I'm a producer. A lot of that for me is cultural. I'm a Hispanic from Argentina - my mom was a concert pianist - but basically I didn't want to do traditional South American music.

SECONDS: What's the traditional music of South America?

BISI: Argentina's very interesting because, like America, it has many different forms of music that are very different from each other and can all be referred to as traditional. What came from the Italian immigrants mixing their musical styles with Spanish styles is tango. If you look at all the last names, it's all Italian last names or Hispanicized last names. My name, Bisi, was probably from many generations ago. In the mid-1900s, my last name was probably longer, and they chopped it off to make it more Hispanic.

SECONDS: So your family came from Italy?

BISI: Only on my father's side. My mother's side is Spanish and Indian. My father's side is from the capitol of Argentina, which is all people of Italian descent. It's not really a Hispanic city per se. So I didn't want to do tango - that's too European. To be honest with you, I generally find Southern Europe, in terms of culture and music and art, very unappealing. The whole emphasis on sentimentality, love - all these things you find particularly in Italy - I find unappealing. Even my Italian side I'm not really drawn to. I'm actually more drawn to Northern Europe, which isn't part of my background at all, and I'm certainly drawn to American Indian stuff - certainly in terms of art where it's about transcendance, not about the sentimentality of life. It's more about getting into the nature of life. I was much more drawn to the forms of the interior of Argentina, which is generally guitar and voice. Rhythmically it's a mix of flamenco styles and the native music of the interior of Argentina.

SECONDS: Is the Gaucho tradition similar to the cowboy and Indian tradition?

BISI: Certain things are going to be similar. Culturally they're quite different. With Gaucho culture there's a real important racial dimension. It's definitely a mix of Spanish and Indian. Now, the classic Gauchos have a little bit of something else because there's been a lot of immigration. There's a strong racial identity. The Gauchos were strongly repudiated by the Indians and there was a lot of conflict there.

Basically, the ancestors of the Gauchos were children of rape. There was not a lot of intermarriage. The children of mixed race born to Indian women were generally thrown out. So you had this vagabond, unwanted people that didn't fit in with either world. In fact,the word gaucho means orphan. The identity of being a bastard is really pervasive in Argentina. You also find that in many parts of South America. In Mexico, people are always saying "la chingada," the gangbang. It all comes down to that - the rape of the Indian women by Spaniards, the seed of the modern Mexican. They're always cursing, "Inca de la chingada," daughter of chingada.

Back to myself, I didn't want to do traditional Spanish music. I didn't find any inspiration in getting involved with what I perceive as very Anglo music. I don't have a thing about p.c., but the reality of it is: even though rock has Black roots, even though music is changing all over [the] world, I see rock music as a primarily American form, although the British can sort of do it. To my taste, I don't find that people from other cultures can do rock music quite the same way. That's why producers are producers - they don't have a strong musical identity and that's my problem. I didn't want to just do Anglo rock. Little by little, I've found a way around that. I must say there's a little bit of that on this new record. For instance, from a rhythmic point of view there's a very obvious chacarrerra. The chacarrerra - the root of it is flamenco. I feel it was influenced by Brazilian music to some extent.

SECONDS: What's the signature of Brazilian music?

BISI: The African influence. In southern Brazil, you'll find a strong emphasis on polyrhythms, but without all the percussion. It's like they replaced all the percussion with stringed instruments. The actual percussive instruments are of African importation. In other parts of Brazil, the people are less African. The influence is still there, but the instrumentation is more guitars. If you think of flamenco and Brazilian music intermingling - that's part of the rhythmic sensibility of chacarrerra.

SECONDS: Do you think that rock music is a propagandistic form, first and foremost?

BISI: I think rock music, in general, touches on very Anglo sensibilities, almost pagan. For instance, one thing that struck me: I was reading about Thor, and how did they summon Thor? Huge chaos, making a racket, banging drums. Noise summons Thor. I look at some of what's important in rock music and we've certainly found a tremendous importance in noise and chaos and volume. There's something about making a racket which seems to jive with rock. When I read that about summoning Thor, it reinforced my feeling about it being a very kind of ethnic Anglo form and that it touches the Anglo ancestral identity.

If you ask an African musician to put into music what a mountain is saying, I think that African will give you a rhythm. I'm pretty certain of that, because when I was working with these Afro-Cuban guys, they had the spirits of nature. They had different rhythms for these different spirits. These different rhythms that carry the name of the spirit were meant to bring the spirit into their circle and penetrate. That's why I'm not a 100% rock guy: I was born in America but I was also born of Argentine parents.

SECONDS: If someone wants a Martin Bisi-produced record, what will they get that they won't get anywhere else?

BISI: I can use Cop Shoot Cop as an example. They asked me to co-produce. They didn't ask me to take control by any means. They said my input helped communicate with listeners because I didn't just let the music be, I brought myself into it. I enjoy mystery in sounds and the blending of sounds. I enjoy listening to a piece of music where I'm not clear what all the individual instruments are doing. In other words, I prettify what's there, but with Cop Shoot Cop that was okay; with music that was nasty and abrasive, it helped. That was just the right amount of mayo in the sandwich.

SECONDS: That's really in contrast to ALL WILL BE WON. It doesn't sound produced. It sounds like what you'd hear around a campfire.

BISI: I wanted it to sound very natural. There's a couple of places where I play with a little brutality. I allowed Swans to come in. I let Foetus come in. There's obviously songs where there's programmed rhythms.

SECONDS: Given that your mom was a pianist, there's a refreshing lack of keyboards on this record.

BISI: Basically, it's not an instrument I'm interested in at all. I like guitar. The guitar is an important instrument in Argentina. It's an instrument I'm inspired by. Piano is something you find in tango and classical music -that's what I associated [it] with as a child. I don't like what classical music stands for. I don't like where it's coming from. I don't like that it's elitist, that it's long, that it's Eurocentric - all those things. There's a certain dimension of Eurocentricity that I don't like. I love White people because of their pagan background. That's what I love about rock music and a lot of my white friends. I really wish there was what I see as a Northern European sensibility in our culture. I don't like Christianity. I don't like Catholicism. I don't like the serious intent of classical music. That's one of my problems with Bill Laswell - I don't mind doing serious music every once in a while, but everything has to be serious with him. One reason I really like that Christina is on this record - for the people who are aware of what she does - is that it helps me articulate the point that this is supposed to be fun.

SECONDS: No matter how soft and romantic the music on your album is, there's a very cosmopolitan sensibility.

BISI: When I worked as a mixer with Cop Shoot Cop, I tried to find this spiritual strain which goes back to my associating with the very sort of spiritual Gaucho sensibility.

SECONDS: What is the highest compliment that your music can be paid?

BISI: If people say that in South America they can see whole scenes emerging from this record, that would be a very high compliment.

SECONDS: Would you prefer to be working in South America?

BISI: I wouldn't want to live down there. I don't think South America has a very inspired modern culture. I think America has the most inspired modern culture on the planet. All the other countries that have soemthing going on that's interesting, it's much more traditional than the stuff going on here. Black music seems to have little to do with any Black form that came before it. Just even from the view of instrumentation, it's completely new.

SECONDS: What's the worst criticism you've ever heard?

BISI: If someone focused on it as all flamenco music with some token distortion on top, that would really bother me because that would imply that there was no reason for me to even do it.

SECONDS: Of everything you've worked on, what have you enjoyed the most?

BISI: For some strange reason, I'd have to say Live Skull.

SECONDS: What have you enjoyed the least?

BISI: Arto Lindsay and the Ambitious Lovers. Arto just did Brazilian music with a Synclavier and a literal appropriation of Brazilian music. I'm interested in not using any Latin American players on this next thing because it would be too authentic.

SECONDS: Of everything you've produced, what's sold the most?

BISI: On a lot of the projects that are most important to me, I'm not actually the producer - I'm a mixer or co-producer. The one that sold the best was Herbie Hancock. Sonic Youth was probably the most influential thing I've worked on.

SECONDS: What do you think of Sonic Youth?

BISI: I totally love Sonic Youth. What disappoints a lot of people is how they're less experimental. People are bothered by the fact that they don't go into those long jams using feedback and interesting sonic stuff. The thing I don't like much is they're going along with the crowd on some of the women's issues. There's a song of theirs about sexual harassment in the workplace- believe me, I wouldn't come out in favor of sexual harassment, but I think that sexual harassment should stay what it is. The things that are sexual that are tasteless that have no place in the workplace should be kept as that. To make a dirty joke is not sexual harassment. I also think it's a very Anglo and Jewish thing. I don't think you're going to find too many black girls traumatized by a construction worker going "Hey baby!" on the street. Then, all of a sudden, you have these twinkies - it fucks up their whole day or something. With the black girls, they'll go "Fuck off!" It's done, it's out of their minds.

Why would we want to make these rules in society and tighten things up to where no one can say anything? Sonic Youth seem to imply that's what they want. My point with their message is that the sexual harassment seemed to be a big part of the promotion of the record. It almost seemed that the next thing you're going to hear is that Sonic Youth is against pornography, after they promoted sexual expression with Lydia Lunch and Richard Kern.

SECONDS: Is there going to be a showdown between the Hispanics and the Anglos in America?

BISI: For some reason, I think the whites are not going to get any serious trouble from the Hispanics. That might not be the case with the blacks. There's one thing about the Hispanics which seems different than the blacks - one thing that totally horrifies me about the black community is the black-on-black crime. When you talk about the black people in prison, they're not stealing food to put on the table for their family.

With Hispanics, I don't think there is very much Hispanic-on-Hispanic crime. I know for a fact that in Brooklyn, anytime I'm in a rough spot with Hispanics, I just switch into Spanish and that's the end of the problem. I've seen guys breaking into a friend's car. I start speaking Spanish and everything's over: end of conflict. Some guy who was freaking out in front of Max Fish, saying he wanted to cut someone - I went up to him, spoke to him in Spanish, end of conflict. There's more family unity.

I think, in a way, the black community is very bohemian. I think they're not very inspired by white society. They see white society and don't want in that bad, and I wish they wouldn't complain about it if that's how they feel. They probably want it from a financial point of view and that's why they bitch about it, but their heart isn't in it. I think Hispanics are here to get in. There's also less racial prejudice in Hispanic culture. White Hispanics are less prejudiced against black Hispanics. Intermarriage between the races has always been seen as more acceptable in Hispanic countries. Also, there's a very proud perception among Hispanics of being of mixed race. If you go to Argentina, you can't ever get in the ruling class unless your ancestry goes back to the first marriages of aristocratic Spaniards with Indian wives. Even in Brazil, white Brazilians talk proudly of how they're like cotton, because inside there's a black seed.

SECONDS: Can you forsee any future problems between whites and Indians?

BISI: I don't imagine a lot of conflicts with the American Indians. I think it might be very surprising what kind of genetic comeback they're going to make. I also think that one of the reasons there should be an open door with Mexico is because I think a lot of those people have an aboriginal right to come over the border.

SECONDS: Do you forsee a showdown between black and white?

BISI: I think it's possible. You know why I think it's there? The intelligent, left-wing liberal sees a lot of things about the black community that they find very distasteful. How they perceive black views of women makes it hard for white liberals to really embrace black Muslims. It's a total mystery to me why blacks are even drawn to Muhammadanism, considering that it has very little to do with their ancestry. They're Africans and they're taking this white man's religion. Islam is just another white man's religion.

How whites perceive the black perception of homosexuals is a big problem. In fact, it's a big problem for me. I was appalled about how homophobic Bootsy Collins was. When Bootsy found out that the people in Deee-lite were homosexuals, Bootsy left. He stopped working with them and got the rest of those guys like Maceo Parker from the James Brown band and P-Funk to pull out. He got all of them to pull out from Dee-lite because...they're homosexuals. Now, Bootsy - here you have a semi-legendary figure in black music who I totally expected to be an enlightened person. I was ready to write him off. A happening, hip, tuned-in, influential, real inspiring artist is, in fact, a horrible homophobe.

SECONDS: If there was a race war tomorrow, what would be the feeling of the Hispanic community about which side to go with?

BISI: They'd go with the whites. For one thing, the power of Hispanics lies with the white Cubans. The Cubans are the richest Hispanics and also the lightest skinned and they have a lot of the power. On a national level, I think they would go with the whites.

SECONDS: Who's the worst human being you've ever met?

BISI: I would have to go with the people that express some sort of prejudice. None of them really sunk that low. I'd probably hug Bootsy if I saw him. I'm more concerned with sexism than with homophobia. I'm not obsessive about gay rights. I don't particularly see gays in being in that bad a position. When you consider the globe, you realize that economic power ultimately is power and, when you look at the gay community, you realize they have a good amount of economic power. I don't feel a great sense of urgency regarding gay rights. There's things that need to be worked out, but I don't perceive them as particularly oppressed individuals. I don't think society is necessarily that discriminatory.